""Orson "Sidecutter" Christian"" <sidecutter@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in
message
news:iivSc.289409$XM6.69093@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> "Raksha" <Raksha@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
> > Dan Gilvezan, voice of Bumblebee, was apparently left to fend for
> > himself in Chicago traffic and got lost on his way to the convention
> > center. Nobody from the staff bothered to meet him. Now, I've driven
> > in Chicago numerous times. It's not fun. It's almost as bad as
> > driving in Columbus. Meeting the voice actor at the air****t and
> > ferrying him safely to the convntion is, I'd think, just common
> > courtesy toward someone who offered their time in order to be with the
> > fans. I'm sure there are those who will be quick to blame the guy's
> > lousy sense of direction over any fault or failing of the 1H staff, of
> > course....
>
> There's two serious questions to be asked here. 1) Was any such
meet/pickup
> talked about by either side, agreed to, or promised? 2) If not, then,
well,
> tough. Getting to the con center area from the air****t is a piece of
cake.
> Maybe Dan had bad directions or crummy maps, or maybe as you said, his
> direction senses are a little off, but unless 3H promised any such
things,
> or did it for any other guest, I don't see why it should have been
expected
> they do it for Dan. It's a nice courtesy, sure, but not the norm for
cons
> of this size (or hell, even for, say ComicCon), I believe.
Tough? TOUGH? Oh here again lets pass the buck, now apparently its the
Guest's fault for getting lost. Darn you, you were late to the Convention
center that we invited you to, and it can't possibly be our fault now can
it. Your assuming things not in evidence, sure its an easy drive from
O'Hare
to the convention center, but how do you know he didn't fly into Midway? I
live in Chicago and to tell you the honest truth it is faster for me to
drive to the air****t in Milwaukee than it is for me to drive to Midway
Air****t in Chicago. Even if he didn't fly into Midway and did fly into
O'Hare, are you going to have the gall to tell me that the well being of
an
invited guest is not the responsibility of the Convention staff? I mean
c'mon, are you going to sit there at your computer screen and try to tell
me
that if your mom lived out of state and flew in to visit you, that unless
it
was talked about before hand, your mom would have to fend for herself from
the Air****t to your house? This isn't any different than that.
> > >People being referenced to "page 2" of
> > >> a map-and-directions packet which consisted of only one page.
> > >
> > >Right, because the page in question was a copy from the program book,
> where
> > >page 2 did exist. I mean, seriously. Why should 3H go to the
effort,
> time,
> > >and expense of specially editing and making an altered version of
said
> map
> > >just for a completely unknown number of attendee walk-ins, where they
> take
> > >the chance of that expense going notably to waste? if people needed
a
> > >dealer room map that bad, they could buy a guide right at the door as
> they
> > >walked in, or just ask someone for a look, which I think most fans
would
> be
> > >most willing to help with.
> >
> > So the fact that most fans and dealers are happy and willing to help
> > out with directions, absolves the convention staff from knowing what
> > they're doing and actually providing information?
>
> I didn't say that. I said that you can't expect the staff to spend
extra
> money on a set quantity of something which has the potential to go
largely
> into the garbage. And someone could, at any time, ask directions to an
> area, and I believe they would have gotten good ones from the staff this
> year, at least.
I can and do expect the staff to spend extra money on a set guantity of
something which has the potential to go largely into the trash, and why do
I
expect this? Because I have certain expectations when I go to conventions,
I
expect to be able to find where I want to go without having to resort to
asking for directions, I expect signs to be displayed in prominent and
large
traffic areas, I expect those signs to be well written, well thought out,
and not made with cardboard and a sharpie on the floor hours after the
convention has started, I expect friendly staff who, while not entirely
clairovoyant, certainly smart enough to volunteer information without the
need of being asked, I expect to have both pages of a map when a map
refers
to a page 2, and I expect not to have to ask staff of a different
convention
where to go to buy tickets for the convention I wish to go to. I don't
know
about you but I think these are all fairly reasonable requests.
> They did book the time in advance. I believe the error in booking was
the
> convention center's fault.
>
> > If someone at the hotel screwed up and double-booked, then it would
> > seem it was 1H's responsibility to go to bat and say in no uncertain
> > terms to the hotel that they'd secured that room for the full time ...
>
> Excuse me? Are YOU going to be the one to deny a WEDDING PARTY an
arranged
> room, even if the con center promised it to you first? You talk about
Glen
> being rude, yet here it seems you EXPECT him to be rude, nay, WANT him
to
> be. I think a wedding party has a rather higher level of respect due it
> than a fan convention, even if it does create an inconvenience.
And now we come to your expectations, which apparently are very low. What
you should expect is for the convention center to do the right thing and
find another room for the reception, or even inform the convention staff
about the problem before hand instead of at the last moment shoving the
problem into the face of 3H Productions. What you should expect is an
organizer who does have the courage to stand up for the fans and demand
that
a promise made is a promise kept. What you should expect is for these
problems to never arise in the first place, or at the very least, that
these
problems never come out.
> I don;t refuse to acknowledge errors, but I will look at ALL the
possible
> reasons first, and do a little research. THEN decide who's fault the
> problem was.
>
>
>
> > It would stand if that were the *only* problem in the picture. But it
> > isn't, as I keep pointing out.
>
> And yet, it wasn;t the problem in question. You can't just link every
> single problem together in a chain. Each instance needs to be reviewed
> *singly*, and thoroughly, and considered on it;s own.
No single problems need to be addressed singly, and multiple problems need
to be addressed as multiple problems. So far you, I and every other poster
on this thread have acknowledged that OTFCC 2004 has had its share of
problems, and this is the first thing everyone in this thread has agreed
on.
Our differences lie in where we ascertain blame. However I believe our
differences are fundamentally even more obscure, you see I beleive that
the
it lies in how the problems were handled. 3H productions for this years
convention has taken the problems that occured and compounded them into
larger problems by the manner in which they handled them. Blame for small
problems are passed onto others, whether they be fans, convention centers,
hotels, or conglomerate cor****ations. People would think much more highly
of
Glen and 3H Productions if he simply said 'Yes, we have a problem, and
instead of passing the blame onto someone else, lets try to fix it'.
Problems suddenly become bigger problems when you deny your own
responsibilty.
> > So by now we have blame upon the convention center staff, the rude
> > dealers, "unneccessary" expenses that somebody didn't feel the need to
> > spring for (little things like signs, directions),
>
> Actually, I havn't bothered with the singns. I admit personally that
they
> were a bit lacking, but I had no problem finding my target locations
with
> the basic ability to read a map.
>
> Hasbro/Takara's
> > unreasonable requirements, and there's probably a phase-of-the-moon
> > explanation in there somewhere as well.
>
> Y'know, I don;t know why that needs to be there. I';d never suggest
such
> things.
>
> I'm not just addressing you
> > here, incidentally, but a lot of the posters who have de-lurked to add
> > to this thread (welcome back to the group, btw ;) ), and even words
> > I've seen from the 1H staff itself. The only blame I've *not* seen
> > leveled, is at the ones ultimately responsible for the show: the 1H
> > staff.
>
> Perhaps because, before we decide who's at fault for the problem, we've
done
> that looking into of matters, that listening, and that investigating and
> asking of questions regarding these matters, as I mentioned before.
You,
> however, as best I can tell, take any little piece of adversity, run
with
> it, and either blame it on Glen and his crew without looking into it, or
> twist pieces of a quote out of context to make them sound bad, when they
in
> fact are not. I *still* await corroboration of your claims that Glen
> badmouthed a fan at the 2002 dinner, which, I repeat, I attended, and
which,
> as I recall, included no such thing. But I admit to my memory of the
dinner
> being imprefect and incomplete by now, so I will wait for someone to
speak
> up about it who remembers better.
How come its never the fault of Glen or 3H? The problems with directions
both inside or outside the convention center? Its our fault. The problems
with the swithc in venues of both hotel and convention center because
Hyatt
refused to accept a payment plan? Thats the Hyatt's fault. The problems
with
the convention starting on time? Thats the Dealer's fault. The problems
with
getting the 2003 OTFCC plates? Thats Hasbro's fault. The problems I have
with all the problems? Thats my fault.
Explain to my why absolutely none of it is ever Glen's fault? As the main
organizer of the convention he should step up and accept some of the
resonsibilites for his own actions. If he has anything to do with any of
these situations than he is in part responsible for their outcomes. His
simple act of never accepting his fair share of the blame is another one
of
the main problems that will need to be rectified.
> Except, you're one of the few who actually think this. This is your
> OPINION. I think said bust looks quite good, even though statuary isn'y
my
> thing (for room and cost reasons). Maybe that's the problem. You keep
> going with *your* opinion on the problems and their causes, and when
someone
> comes forth with a factual reason for it, you can't manage to hear it
> fairly, because it goes against your opinion.
Where are your factual reasons? I have seen conjecture, and I have seen
your
own opinions stated in this thread. How dare you harpoon the opinions and
beliefs of others in statements that are mostly opinion themselves.
Certainly I am biased about opinions. Opinions are nothing BUT bias.
Opinions are your likes and dislikes, they are you beliefs, they are your
blessing and your curses. You find facts that sup****t your opinions and
you
post them here in this guarded forum ( and by guarded I mean that your
opinion is as protected as any other) because you are railing agianst an
opinion that you dislike. I post facts that are sup****tive of my opinions
as
well, and for every one of your facts I am positive I can come up with one
that is of a divergent opinion and still be equally as true as yours.
> In your opinion. Through the eyes of a person who believes anything
less
> than perfect cartoon accuracy is a crime against the character,
nevermind
> that the character changed constantly throughout a single *episode*,
> nevermind a series. But that which does not meet your personal ideal,
is
> automatically a horrendous insult to the character.
Now when did this thread suddenly diverge from a civilized chat regarding
a
hosted convention to inflamatory remarks about a posters beliefs? We have
suddenly degraded a topic that has brought life back into ATTCM into a
pissing contest.
> Then extend the same to 3H. Stick with them, include all the RIGHT
things
> done while Glen was involved before the team was split, regardles sof
your
> opinions on that split, and let them have the chance to redeem
themselves
> like you gave to Hard Hero. I doubt even YOU can deny that overall, the
con
> did run smoother this year than last, IN SPITE of the issues early this
year
> with venue changes and such.
I shall always strive to give credit where credit is due, and I cannot
deny
the fact that overall the con did run smoother this year than last,
however
I also will point blame where blame is due. An orange is after all an
orange, and I will continue to call it so.
> Nothing bad was done to YOU, so nothing personal was. I like the
Hartmans
> as much as anyone. They're great guys. But quite frankly, it's like
having
> two friends who get in a spat, for me. I'm staying out of it, because
> unless it actually involves me personally, the situation is not my
business.
Hmmm, 6 posts up to this point, ridiculing us for saying we did not enjoy
this years convention. 6 posts up to this point where you refuse to
entertain the fact that part of the blame has to reside in Glen's corner
as
well. Certainly you stay out of it.
> And even those who didn't know the history
> > of this event, or who didn't care, who have no feelings one way or the
> > other about anybody involved, must surely see that from a purely
> > organizatinal standpoint, there are constant problems, met by constant
> > excuses.
>
> I think the posts here rather seem to counter that. Accept it or not,
the
> majority of the fandom does not agree with your views on it.
> Again, if some people
> > attended the con and enjoyed it, had a blast, had the time of their
> > life, etc. etc., so much the better for them. But those who attended
> > both cons, have really had some interesting comparisons to make....
>
> Then let them come in and speak on this in this thread. I;ve yet to see
> anyone not of your little clique really bash the OTFCC in comparison.
And
> I've read a number of con re****ts/reviews on it now.
I'm sorry? Just because I have an opinion about this particular convention
that is the same as Raksha's and because I count her as being a good
friend,
I am suddenly part of 'her little clique'? I have an opinion on a subject
that I have every right to voice, and you have every right to frankly
ignore, but because I share an opinion with another we can automatically
be
lumped into a group together? Are you allowing your emotions to get the
best
of you now? Here I thought we were having a lively and highly CIVIL
debate,
but so far during the course of this last post of yours, you have
lampooned
everything Raksha has posted as being purely opinion with no factual
reference, and suddenly made it sound as if we're a gang whose sole
purpose
in life is to destroy 3H Productions and Glen personally. I resent the
fact
that you cannot think of me as having an equally valid opinion that cannot
be evaluated on its own merits.
> > In actual fact, I've taken issue with some of the true 3H conventions
> > as well. BotCon '01 was the single worst con I've ever been to, and
> > I've said so numerous times. The recent cons had turned into glitzy
> > advertising vehicles for the latest toys and were muscling out the fan
> > element more and more. This too, I have said. If I don't like
> > something, believe me, I say so. ;)
>
> But you don't nitpick on them the same way, and actually consider that
it
> may not be entirely the fault of those in charge.
If it is not entirely the fault of those in charge. then whose is it?
Ultimately decisions are made by those in charge and those decisions are
what need to be held solely responsible. If this convention had gone off
without a hitch, and everyone including myself had said that it was the
best
convention I had ever been to, don't you dare think for a minute that Glen
would not be basking in the glory of a job well done. If it had been a
success people would be lauding the talents of 3H and its staff, and 3H
would be thanking us for the praise. This convention was not a success,
and
instead of taking the praise, all that we have heard has been 'Its not our
fault'. I have just one thing to say about that, frankly it is. After all
he
wanted the job.
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